Do You Believe in Reincarnation?
  • tinthaninja
    Posts: 109Citizen
    Posted By: AcabramzachBoth are saying exactly that. So if both can not be "you", then you dont exist no more. The duplication process killed "you".


    The original still exists nonetheless. Nothing has changed except now a copy exists. You still exist, you just don't know if you are the original.
  • Acabramzach
    Posts: 204Citizen
    Actually, since most people who believe in it also believe that you come back with absolutely no memory from your other life, is there even a point in calling it reincarnation.-X Variable


    Well, you are actually incarnated with no memory of past life. So it is a pretty good start.

    When you aquire counscience as a child it has nothing to do with memory. Your brain has developped to the stage of "triggering" it. The child has no life as "I" yet.

    So it doesn't matter if "you" dont have any memory of a past life. So there is no reason why "you" are counscious of yourself on earth in 2008 and have not being before this birth or after this coming death.

    Why would "you" be only counscious in this body in this time span ?
  • Acabramzach
    Posts: 204Citizen
    The original still exists nonetheless. Nothing has changed except now a copy exists. You still exist, you just don't know if you are the original.-Tinthanija


    They are exact copies, so there are no more original. Both dont know. How can two "you" exist at the same time ?

    Same for perfect twins. Without any life experiences they aquire an "I" when brain is ready. It doesn't matter in witch body. So it should'nt matter if the bodies are 400 years appart in history.

    The newspaper said today that twins have been born a year appart.
  • tinthaninja
    Posts: 109Citizen
    Two objects cannot occupy the same space.

    It's two different sentient objects, not two inanimate ones. If we're talking numerical data or rocks, perhaps I will be more inclined to agree.
  • Seppe Cools
    Posts: 347Citizen
    Posted By: X_variableThere is no evidence of reincarnation.

    Actually, since most people who believe in it also believe that you come back with absolutely no memory from your other life, is there even a point in calling it reincarnation. It's untestable, and I certainly hope no one will give me a reply saying "therefore you cannotdisprove it" because we all no where that is from.

    From a scientific standpoint, it is as unlikely as God, this being an atheist forum, I am surprised to find so many people believe in this stuff.


    Background comment:
    There is a very big difference between some of us here, and a religious person who "believes" in reincarnation.
    The religious persons that you are talking about, received the idea of reincarnation first, and then "believed" in it without any further "testing" or whatever.

    People like me did not start thinking about reincarnation and thinking: "is it true? can i proof it?" etc...
    No, people like me found it as a conclusion, just as your view "there is nothing after death" is a conclusion.

    The reincarnation that we are talking about here is not: "our soul flies away and enters another body". If you think that this is our view, then you are right saying that it's a bit ridiculous to believe in this stuff and that it's untestable etc..
    But no, it's not about that, it's all about the non-existment of a personal soul.

    The question is: What is that particular feeling that we are all experiencing at this moment to be here on a planet in this particular body?
    2 options:
    - We are individuals who are visiting the universe for a short period of time ( = we end up in the "nothingness" after our deaths = your view )
    - We are the universe that's experiencing itself, through our bodies. ( = my view)

    If you go for option 1, then it requires more hocus pocus than for option 2.
    Why?
    In option 2 everything is there already: the consiousness that we experience is 100 % part of the universe and it has always been there, and will always be there.
    In option 1 however, you are a visitor, and visitors must be coming from somewhere, and go to somewhere, right? Well, you seem to know already where you are going to: "the nothingness". But you will also have to find an answer on the question: "Where are you coming from then?"
    You have answered the question: "Where am i going to". Then there also must be a question: "Where am i coming from". Right?

    Me and some others here however, are actually saying that these questions are invalid and we don't ask them. We are saying that there is no travelling at all, but there is just "being".
    And because there is no travelling, the current state is the real and only thruth: At this moment we are here and we are experiencing life. And we say that this kind of stuff goes on forever and ever.

    Most important part of this post:
    You, however, say that there will be a moment that everything will dissapear and stop for you. This is 100 % hypothetical and 100 % unproven. In fact, this makes you the one here who's coming up with a unproven fantasy, just as people do when they talk about God or about Hell or about Heaven. God, Hell and Heaven are just like the Nothingness that you are talking about: nobody has seen them and nobody has experienced them.

    So let's be clear about is: Yes I am an Athe
  • Acabramzach
    Posts: 204Citizen
    Same conclusion here, Seppe Cools.

    The affirmation that we are here from nowhere and will disappear in nowhere does not make sense with what we experience. The religions say that.

    We are the Universe's top evolution stage. It's concious level. We all are the same conscience. We are star-dust that gave itself conscience. How can this happenned randomly in just 15 billion years, out of dust ? The only reasonnable explanation is that the Universe has a "law" just like the others(gravity-electromagnetism-week and strong force) for it.
  • tinthaninja
    Posts: 109Citizen
    Posted By: AcabramzachThe affirmation that we are here from nowhere and will disappear in nowhere


    Nice straw man for "atheist beliefs" bro
  • PsycoDad
    Posts: 23Citizen
    Yes I do.
    I assume it being a process of accumulating emotional experience. The way to transmit it? No idea.
    To counter the "prof" demand i´ll give some problems included:
    1.the measurement problem
    2.no smaler than the planck lengh? what about the infinite number line?
    3.what is time?
    4.iterations create most of the systems we perceive in reality (strange attractor)

    1. states that concsiousness somehow influences reality
    2. though we don´t know there is still theoretic space
    3. no idea, but something odd is about it, isn´t it?
    4. this seems to be a strange concept but every part is again a part of the whole ad infinitum

    Don´t get me wrong, I still think the scientifc method is the best way to understand reality. This is not something esoteric, especially not 1.
  • Acabramzach
    Posts: 204Citizen
    Exactly, PsycoDad.

    We can't separate science from religion (relation with all).

    True religion is grasping the art in science and science as art.
  • pic81
    Posts: 206Citizen
    seppe cools:"We are the universe that's experiencing itself, through our bodies."



    i agree on that one.what else can we be other than nature?
  • pic81
    Posts: 206Citizen
    as far as reincarnation is concerned.it seems to me like the 'opium' of the hindus-buddists,similar to paradise-hell,rewards and condemptions,consolation etc.
  • Komadori
    Posts: 292Citizen
    I neither believe nor disbelieve in reincarnation. It is an intriguing concept, but I figure it's more important to focus on what is at hand, in the here and now, than to contemplate spiritual consequences that may or may not exist, after death.

    I do believe in karma, in a sort of social chaos-theory model. There are few who don't get their come-uppance in some type of fashion.
  • X_variable
    Posts: 82Citizen
    "Most important part of this post:
    You, however, say that there will be a moment that everything will dissapear and stop for you. This is 100 % hypothetical and 100 % unproven. In fact, this makes you the one here who's coming up with a unproven fantasy, just as people do when they talk about God or about Hell or about Heaven. God, Hell and Heaven are just like the Nothingness that you are talking about: nobody has seen them and nobody has experienced them.

    So let's be clear about is: Yes I am an Athe
  • Acabramzach
    Posts: 204Citizen
    We know that consciousness requires a brain.-Xvariable


    Exactly.

    The evolution of the brain, from reptilian to human is quite obvious.

    When you say "requires" it means that something has pre-knowledge of what is needed.

    Something was aiming for something.
  • Seppe Cools
    Posts: 347Citizen
    Posted By: pic81as far as reincarnation is concerned.it seems to me like the 'opium' of the hindus-buddists,similar to paradise-hell,rewards and condemptions,consolation etc.


    Firstly, i agree on this one. For most people (the religious ones) they just use it as an opium. They heard about "reincarnation" and then they "believe" it simply because it sounds cool.

    This is not the case for me. I did not go investigate reincarnation. I just came up with something, let's call it "the eternal experiencing of the universe". And from all the ideas out there, it is the closest to the idea of reincarnation. Therefore I call it reincarnation but that might be just a dirty shortcut.



    Posted By: pic81seppe cools:"We are the universe that's experiencing itself, through our bodies."



    i agree on that one.what else can we be other than nature?

    I think we are simply everything, but only (most) biological creatures are able to reflect on it thanks to the brain they have.
    The brain is a self-analyzing device which can reflect on itself. The brains of us, humans, is advanced enough to take this to the farest point of all the brains on earth.

    We are just and only machines. But because we have a brain, we experience it in a different way, than a car or a train is experiencing this.
    There are no "special souls" floating out there who decide to connect to a human, and decide to not connect to a car.
    Instead, there is only this giant mess of star-dust.

    A car can not reflect on itself because the star-dust is not forming any device to let the car reflect on itself.
    For humans however, the star-dust forms a device that makes us able to reflect on itself, creating the awareness that makes us grasp time and space.
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