The Arrogant Atheist Forum

Posted By: many?sI think education today is waaaaaay over priced and under rated.

Over-priced how? What is over-priced to you and why?
Just a comparison, the US spending (according to Wikipedia) is 3,456$ billion. Of that, about 689$ billion are spent on Defence, that's about 20%. Education gets about 71$ billion. Now tell me, which of the two is over-priced? Cut Defence spending by one hundredth and give it to Education, it'd do wonders.

Posted By: many?sIs it really all worth the drama and money.

As a teacher, I say yes. As a future father, I say "what else would be worth the drama and money"? As a citizen of Europe, I say that it's the most important thing you can spend money on.

Posted By: many?sIs it fair?

No, that certainly isn't. In Austria, the worst schools get the best teachers to make up for the differences. It doesn't quite work out, but it's a damn good system.

Posted By: many?sJust because those schools have a better sucess rate or whatever, who's to say that back country school or small schools can't use the money to start getting better academics so every one would have a fair chance?

I absolutely agree. On the whole though, there should be more money for education and the whole problem wouldn't exist. (The problem of where the money should go that is.)

I think education today is waaaaaay over priced and under rated.

Yes. This is very true. I will never ever send my child to school or college.

Is it really all worth the drama and money.

No. But sad to say, the system has too many people fooled. On an individual basis, it helps give students a better opportunity to find jobs. However, not only we have an overwhelming amount of students bringing in student loans, which helps destroy the economy, we also have tax payer's money along with hard working money going to scholarships to pay for students tuition which further helps destroy the economy on a large scale. Why? Since school tuition is too high, spending money on tuition does not help the economy. So school is not worth the drama and money, we must stop feeding the system now.

Idk if it like this everywhere but here in Virginia, the majority of money goes to the bigger schools who already have better academics. Is it fair?

Many things aren't fair in life. But we must recognize the traditional schooling methods no longer work. It is better to have schooling online at a much cheaper price. In fact, it would be ideal that every parent teach their children. Schools are too big and they teach too many wrong subjects as well.

Just because those schools have a better sucess rate or whatever, who's to say that back country school or small schools can't use the money to start getting better academics so every one would have a fair chance?

You really don't need that much money to succeed (However, having money of course, makes some things much easier). Just remember, the most precious mental ability lies in your own creativity. If you don't have money, create ways that can better yourself without it. It's more about teaching methods than monetary funds.

Posted By: mildandhazyThere's nothing wrong with paying for an education that will most likely pay for itself in a moderate amount of time. The problem is that kids are lied to (from "feel-good, self-esteem, you-are-a-special-individual" culture) about the realities of "following your dreams" and the probability of earning a decent living on it.

What needs to happen (and again, this is part of a gradual change to something more ideal), is that high-school students are counseled by an actual person (I once got "loan counseling" via computer). The students would tell the counselor tentative higher education/ career plans. The counselor would then help the student map out the best way for that student to reach their goals, financially, emotionally, and realistically. Sometimes you don't have to go to college. Sometimes you only need to go to technical college. Sometimes the requirements for certain fields don't fit certain students' personalities. And sometimes it's not realistic to spend $50,000 at a fancy school to be a chef (with an average pay being only $10 an hour).

Urgh. This, this, this. The attitude we were given in high school was like, apply to all the schools you can. Go to the most prestigious school you can get into. The only counseling we were really given was that we drew two line graphs over lapping each other of like college vs going to school straight out of high school, with the moral of the graph story being that you can make more money in the long term going to college so you should go to college. And yeah, that's just not right. But we all found ourselves taking out loans fresh out of high school because we didn't know any better. It would have been a SCANDAL if I went to community college first rather than university. Not by my parents but my classmates and teachers. One of my teachers wanted me to go to the most expensive public school in the US for *cough* creative writing. LOL.

I love learning and education, and I think education is a right. I think probably a four year degree may be necessary in areas where it wasn't years ago and you can't live off of minimum wage. But there's a smart way and a stupid way to go about it, and being taught "go to the best school you can no matter what" is a dumb ass way to do it. "Good" schools and technical schools take different approaches. I have several friends at my good school who wished they'd gone somewhere more technical because they like the technical aspects of their subject and would have been happier with a two year degree. A school like mine tends to push more of the "you are the future leaders of the world!" and you won't do much technical stuff cuz you'll be too busy being a leader of your technician underlings.

I could have used me some good financial advice. It's not that easy to get a job post graduation and student loans are not very nice at all. I was top of my class in high school. I should have known better, if anybody, right? I didn't.

Posted By: mildandhazyThere are a few other reasons I think homeschooling isn't the best option in most cases, and I will get into them, if you'd like, but I at least wanted to address that.

I've primarily seen homeschooling done badly. I've seen once truly (what I would call) successful venture, but it was a hybrid of homeschool-public school education. I think a lot of what motivates homeschooling is to control what information your child takes in, and I understand that to an extent (ie I dislike swearing in front of children, glorifying alcohol, that sort of thing) but primarily it creeps me out. But diversity of thought is so very important to me. Anyway, I've wrestled with the idea of homeschooling because sometimes the public school system looks so bad (as far as teacher quality), but there's no healthy way to mimic the soft skills you develop or other experiences you have by going to public school.

Posted By: mildandhazyEvery child should have access to quality early childhood education

Because that's the problem, isn't it? Society doesn't value teachers. They're not usually looked upon as "smart", teaching isn't really seen as a skill you learn. Like college profs think that just because they're brilliant they should naturally be an ace at teaching, but it's not true. You need knowledge about teaching, you need to practice those skills like any other. There is so much drama and politics around measuring teacher and student aptitude and it's nearly impossible to get rid of a teacher that is legit horrible at their job. And then what? The teachers don't have to try when they make tenure, and many don't. Only those that truly have passion.

This was just a rant more than anything thoughtful, but basically, I agree with mild.

Oh wow, I don't usually get really into these threads like this, but this is where my heart is (and I also would love to jump in the evolution debate but Inferno pretty much covers it all, plus I can't watch more than a couple minutes of that horrible video).

But anyways. . . Hi Ferdy!

Posted By: FerdinandThe attitude we were given in high school was like, apply to all the schools you can. Go to the most prestigious school you can get into.

Yeah, like how 'bout applying for schools which are a good fit for you (and goodness forbid it be local so you can mooch off you parents for a couple more years). "But Mild! I need the 'college experience.'"

No you don't. Living in dorms watching your peers make bad decisions possibly altering how well you do is not that great of an experience. Stay home, study. Drink and have some fun when you are old enough to drink and have a decent job.

Posted By: FerdinandI could have used me some good financial advice. It's not that easy to get a job post graduation and student loans are not very nice at all.

Understatement of the year, me too.

Posted By: FerdinandI've primarily seen homeschooling done badly.

Yes, and now there is not only bad home-schooling coming from conservative fundie Christians, who teach their children that global warming isn't happening, and that dinosaur bones were put there by the Devil to trick us, there is now bad homeschooling with liberal unschooling, where children won't get an opportunity to learn anything they are not interested in.

Posted By: FerdinandI think a lot of what motivates homeschooling is to control what information your child takes in, and I understand that to an extent (ie I dislike swearing in front of children, glorifying alcohol, that sort of thing) but primarily it creeps me out. But diversity of thought is so very important to me.

Yes, and I have to say that as someone who is educated in child development (and who has lived it, not home-schooled but very sheltered), shielding children from swears, drugs, sex, and booze really isn't going to give parents an opportunity to talk to the child about what is right and wrong (I hesitate to use those words even, how about better choices than others) about the situation in question. A teenage girl who gets nothing from her parents about what she heard her friends talking about is more likely to participate in such activities. The fact is, children want and need (whether or not it's secretly or subconsciously) their parents input on these issues, and parents need to be able to feel comfortable talking about them. Too bad home-schooling parents who are not educated in teaching or child development sometimes don't figure this out on their own.

Posted By: FerdinandAnyway, I've wrestled with the idea of homeschooling because sometimes the public school system looks so bad (as far as teacher quality), but there's no healthy way to mimic the soft skills you develop or other experiences you have by going to public school.

I have actually wrestled with this myself after moving to this state, which has excellent education options (all levels starting from preschool) 2 1/2 hours away, but nothing beyond acceptable in this town. It seems to me that even my Kindergarten friend who goes to probably the better of the elementary schools in the area gets bombarded with worksheets all day, only to have to come home and do more worksheets! And I'm not saying I have anything on this teacher as far as education or experience goes, but she is obviously *not* current on the better ways to teach these simple concepts than worksheets. It makes me want to tell her parents to pull her out and let me home-school her, if she weren't so socially retarded (and I mean that in the technical definition, negative connotations aside). And it makes me wonder what I will do when my own children are ready for school. . .

Posted By: FerdinandBecause that's the problem, isn't it? Society doesn't value teachers. They're not usually looked upon as "smart"

I'm going to talk specifically about ECE and say that they let almost anybody in. I had a presumably home-schooled peer, upon my excitement and celebration when I found out I would be doing a dinosaur week for my final project asked me, "What is *up* with dinosaurs. I mean, why do people think they used to exist?" resulting in this look from me:


I had a job shadow who was saying the letters in a puzzle to a three-year-old, only to say the wrong letters, resulting in this look:

from the poor little boy, only to have her look up at my co-teacher and say, "I'm not so good at my letters sometimes." Lol. This was set up by a high-school guidance counselor! Sometimes "you can be whatever you want to be" is limited by your own shortcomings. No matter how awesome this girl thinks she is, she *can't* mix up letters while teaching young children. I'm sorry for that, but sometimes life is real.

For my field to gain respect, we need to tighten the standards of who can join the programs, and we need to up the professionalism to the point where the dead weight can't compete and phase them out. My home-state was/is doing this by making sure that every preschool teacher has at least a two-year degree (if you want to get rated on their state system, Youngstar). Basically, if you aren't rated, or rated too low, no one will want to go to your center. Also, we need to figure out a way to pays these teachers better if we want to keep them in the field (less turnover means better education for children). My home-state also is moving towards this by granting teachers bonuses based on levels of education and experience. This is funded privately and with tax money because regardless of what anyone believes, quality child care is better for the good of all of us (children with quality early childhood education become better adults, staying out of trouble, out of jails, off welfare, and with good jobs, contibuting to the econony in positive ways, yadda yadda.

Posted By: FerdinandLike college profs think that just because they're brilliant they should naturally be an ace at teaching, but it's not true. You need knowledge about teaching, you need to practice those skills like any other. There is so much drama and politics around measuring teacher and student aptitude and it's nearly impossible to get rid of a teacher that is legit horrible at their job. And then what? The teachers don't have to try when they make tenure, and many don't. Only those that truly have passion.

I agree that teaching is not for everyone. You can be brilliant at what you do, and learn how to teach, but you also need to have a personality good for teaching. I have only met a few people that have said, "I'm a natural with children/teens" (I am one of those, but not good with adults, ironically). There's too many people teaching that shouldn't be.

I am divided on teacher's unions. They seem to do a fair amount of good *and* bad. *Shakes head.* You example is a good one. Firing bad teachers. Almost impossible. Also in my new state, the teacher's union is actively trying to discourage bills allowing charter schools. I say these unions have lost touch with what is important, as charter schools, as I have said previously, are excellent in gathering students based on interests and learning styles rather than just age.

Posted By: FerdinandThis was just a rant more than anything thoughtful. . .

I thought your rant was thoughtful and thanks.

It's late. TAG, I will respond to you tomorrow :)