Schools going to shits...
  • Inferno
    Posts: 6,778Citizen
    Here's AronRa's Wife talking about texas schools going to shits because of stupid policy.

    I'll give you guys my opinion plus an update on Austrian/German/Belgian schools as soon as I'm done with Uni tomorrow. Sleepy time now.
  • Goldenkobold
    Posts: 930Serf
    I think part of the reasons schools in my area are not as good as I would like is that they have a very technical side of them
    They really want good standardized test scores as the teachers are graded on those....but now they no longer teach history at all until middle or high school.
    The math they teach is very odd as well....I went to a seminar on it, it reminds me of nonlinear mathematics and model approaches....I don't know if it is actually more effective or just the new thing they are trying out.
  • Inferno
    Posts: 6,778Citizen
    I was too bummed to write anything yesterday.

    I'll go through a few reasons why Austria's school system is getting worse. (Well at least why I think that it is.)
    1) Even though the last 60 years have been marked by an increase in foreigners (Now roughly 10% of all the school-kids), our school system hasn't adapted to this problem. We're currently debating about one year of obligatory pre-school so that kids can learn German. That's completely ridiculous, because no kid can learn a language in one year.,
    The obvious, if costly, solution would be an obligatory German-speaking kindergarten and additional classes in primary school. (Currently, only roughly 50% of all kids aged 3-6 are in Kindergarten, or 215.000 out of 565.000 kids.)
    Some districts of Vienna find that nearly 87% of all kids in any given school don't speak German as a first language and nor do they speak it with their friends.

    2) While nearly 25% of all kids in primary schools and higher schools (Allgemeine HochSchule = AHS, the equivalent to 6-18 year old schools) don't speak German as a first language, only 4-11% of all Students (Teachers and Students in general) do not.
    There is clearly a problem for foreigners here.
    They also don't go into schools with the Baccalaureate (Highest degree you can get from a school, allows you to study at a University.) anywhere near as often as German-speaking kids do.

    3) Roughly half of all private schools are owned and run by the church. (Nuff said?) That's nearly 5% of all school-going kids.
    Only 10% of all schools are privately owned, while the UK, Belgium, etc. have nearly 30%.

    4) Less than 40% of all kids in Austria visit a Baccalaureate school.

    5) Since 1950, we've had a dramatic increase in Students. (Starting with nearly 25.000 in 1950 to 330.000 now.) Our Universities are not equipped to handle this boom. Just the other day I was talking to my head of department and he told me that normally, you'd have 80 Students becoming Geography teachers every year. In the last three years alone, this has increased to nearly 300.
    Nearly 70.000 of those students do not hold an Austrian passport and are therefore benefiting from Austria's free University system.
    Austria is still lower than the European (EU 19) average in people attending University. (50% compared to 55% average)

    6) Academics represent only 10%, maybe less, of the total population, but their Kids make up 17% of the University attending students. (In other words: You're far more likely to get into a University if at least one of your parents is an Academic.)
    Kids whose parents "only" managed to attain an obligatory degree (A positive report at the age of 16) only make up 10% of the students, while their parents make up probably 20% of the population.
    In other words: You're very likely to do what your parents/father did in terms of what school they/he went to.

    I'm only on page 38 of this German report but I'll get back to it after the weekend.
  • Ferdinand
    Posts: 801Citizen
    Why do you want more private schools? Be proud that you don't have an additional educational gap.
  • Mosquito
    Posts: 193Serf
    Posted By: InfernoCurrently, only roughly 50% of all kids aged 3-6 are in Kindergarten

    I think this problem is more about society than education. Women are still trapped in the KKK mentality: K
  • Exiled.One
    Posts: 222Serf
    Why don't we start asking the kids (teenagers) what THEY want. And giving the younger kids and their parents more options?
    It's THEIR education. Let them decide! Not just in Austria, not just in the U.S., but everywhere.

    At least, that's my opinion. And it's not very detailed. Just a general take on a possible solution...
  • Inferno
    Posts: 6,778Citizen
    Posted By: FerdinandWhy do you want more private schools? Be proud that you don't have an additional educational gap.Where have all the flowers gone?


    This may be different in the US, but private schools here fill specific niches. For example, my sisters school is one where English is extremely important and where native speakers come to teach. This is generally not the case in public schools.
    Private schools in Austria aren't "better" as such, they are simply more focused on one theme.

    Posted By: Mosquito
    I think this problem is more about society than education. Women are still trapped in the KKK mentality: K
  • Exiled.One
    Posts: 222Serf
    In the U.S., I think private schools tend to simply be religious like Catholic schools and stuff. There are some that aren't religious though and just focus on one subject more, like English, but they're hard to find.
    Or maybe that's just where I live. I don't know, just thought I'd add that.

    I think European education systems are ten times better then ours. I wish I could have grown up there (in Sweden or Norway) but I could be wrong. I've never actually been to school there.
  • Mosquito
    Posts: 193Serf
    Posted By: Exiled.OneI think European education systems are ten times better then ours.

    It's true and false. It's true for the first (up to 11 year old) and second (11 to 15) levels of education. Then (15 to 18), the US schools catch up for the general education, but not in the professional area. Don't think it's only in cooking or fashion schools that France proposes good cursus; it's true in almost any professional domain; same thing in Deutschland, but no efforts for "frivolous" competencies. But when it comes to university education, US universities are ahead in the majority of knowledge fields.
    Posted By: InfernoOn a final note, it's interesting to see that 50-60 years ago, a parent would trust what the teacher said about an issue. The system wasn't perfect and the punishments were downright wrong, but I think that a comparison would have shown that that system was better

    50 years ago, neither the pupils nor their parents would have criticized the teacher.
    What makes the private schools working is mainly the trust the parents put in them: they accept the children be punished (usually Saturday detention or extra homework). But often, it's for them a means to abdicate their responsibilities.
    The system was better for social peace at school, but pupils learn and know more nowadays. I should write "have learned and known" because the general level is starting to decrease, due to a part of the population being less and less educated.
    Problems are more social than educational.
    In Chile, education costs a lot. The public system is poor, saturated, with low-grade teachers. The private system attracts the best teachers, and provides all day classes, (public system is still too often part-time schooling) but it is costly. There are scholarship for good pupils to attend university, even the best and the more expensive ones, depending on your score at the final exam.
    Posted By: InfernoMost parents (not all, most) don't know enough about anything to be given this option and the same goes for the kids too.

    Most parents would want to see their children learn the same program as they did, to feel able to follow what they do. In my experience, most pupils would think it fine to enjoy everlasting holidays.
  • Exiled.One
    Posts: 222Serf
    Maybe not young children, but teenagers should be given the right to choose. I don't know about other places, but teens here never get a chance to vote on anything, unless its something stupid like what to add to the lunch menu. Younger children (5-12ish) should have more classes involving expression. Writing, music, art, broader math and science, etc. Give the kids the ability to see what they like.

    I see what you're saying about parents. But wouldn't you agree that a majority (not all) of them would want to do whats best for their kids? That a majority of them would like a system that gives their kids more options? Even if they don't, they can always homeschool their kids or send them to private schools.
  • Goldenkobold
    Posts: 930Serf
    Posted By: Exiled.OneI see what you're saying about parents. But wouldn't you agree that a majority (not all) of them would want to do whats best for their kids? That a majority of them would like a system that gives their kids more options?


    I don't think everyone would agree on what is best for the kids, I for one appreciate a well rounded education even if it includes subjects the kids may not exactly be thrilled to attend.
    The problem with giving younger kids more artistic classes is that they schools are already having a hard time fitting in the required core classes into the classroom given the time they have.
  • Exiled.One
    Posts: 222Serf
    That's true Golden, but I think the problem with fitting required core classes lies with the fact that they try to fit too much of it. Complicated math, science, social studies, and language arts can come later. Let's first see if the child is even interested in it. If they are, then you can allow them to concentrate more on that subject in junior high and high school. I personally feel that a lot of my time was wasted in grade school and even now studying subjects I know I will never use. I would have rather had more creative writing classes and been allowed to venture into that early on instead of waiting to take those classes in college like I am now.
  • Mosquito
    Posts: 193Serf
    I think core classes must stay compulsory, and the kids should have to choose between 1 and 3 optional classes which should not be treated as secondary.

    Posted By: Exiled.OneI see what you're saying about parents. But wouldn't you agree that a majority (not all) of them would want to do whats best for their kids?

    According to my experience, most parents would choose what is best for themselves. I don't judge them. Life is hard for most families, and harder for single-parent ones. Parents are usually 100% heroic when a problem happens. School doesn't happen only once. That's the problem.
  • Exiled.One
    Posts: 222Serf
    Posted By: MosquitoI think core classes must stay compulsory, and the kids should have to choose between 1 and 3 optional classes which should not be treated as secondary.


    I understand core classes being compulsory for younger students, but why for teenagers who already know where they're interests lie? For example, why should they have to continue learning science when they know for sure they're going into English?
  • ProletariatTreeHuger
    Posts: 5,135Citizen
    Posted By: Exiled.Onebut why for teenagers who already know where they're interests lie?

    It's incredibly rare for teenagers to actually know what they want to do after school, and to also go into that once you get more years under their belt. Also, why do you want students to only be taught what contributes to their career specifically? Don't you care about a well rounded citizen that's not a complete idiot except for the very narrow profession he was forced into?
    Do you personally not care to learn about anything except what you think your career will be? That's a shame if you do.
  • Mosquito
    Posts: 193Serf
    Life is broader than a job, and anyway, most people will exerce more than one profession during their lives.
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