The Arrogant Atheist Forum

Posted By: breezysprevisedHm, I am not sure satanists believe in hell.

That depends. The symbolic satanists probably don't, for them hell is a representation of something. ^[What?]
Theistic satanists (that's what it's called, since they also believe that God exists) most likely do believe in a literal hell, but as with symbolic satanists this hell is something completely different from the christian hell. (That is to say, it has a different meaning!)

Let me try to explain...
The buck (male goat) in christian symbology stands for Satan. And yet, Satanists often have this symbol propped up in their room or place of worship. Why? Even though they represent the same thing (In this case, disobedience. Remember that christian followers call themselves "sheep" because they blindly follow and the buck takes his own way, he's therefore a bad one, a heretic. In satanism, that's a good thing. After all, one of their core tenants is "make your own way, don't bow down to anyone. "8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.) they are either shunned or worshipped.
Another example is light. In christianity, darkness is something to be feared while light is something you want. In satanism, darkness is something you want because you can hide in the shadows, see but not be seen. Light on the other hand is something bad because everyone can see what you're doing, even if it's not for their eyes to see.


Now that I've made both sides clear (I hope), let's get back to the original topic.
Satanists can very well believe in the exact same hell that christians believe in but see something completely different in it. Remember John Miltons "Paradise Lost":

Here at least
we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
to reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

In fact, "Paradise Lost" has some great quotes on that topic. But I digress...
Now I don't know what hell might actually represent for Satanists, but it seems to me that it represents something completely different than what it represents for christians. I'll quote from a few sites:

Satanist SitePurification and mental well being are benefits of being without guilt; of being able to understand and accept your own past without the hindrance of guilt inspired by the belief that an eternal God is going to ruminate over your errors. Without the need for forgiveness from anyone but oneself; the negativity and pent up emotion that turns a good man into a bitter one instead turns into a relaxing and calming sensation of inner peace. Cleansed. Part of this cleansing process, the fierce burning of hell, involves revoking past demons and, would you guess, allowing those god-shaped holes in your heart to heal,

In Satanism, Hell is a place of power, safety, self development and pleasure. The thinking man who treads the left hand path's first obstacle is to avoid mindless faith and thoughtless belief, and this is also the path to Hell. Intelligence and curiosity will take you there... and you will be rewarded with independence, self reliance, strength, will power and powers that enable you to be successful on this Earth.

In other words, the flames of hell are cleansing (remember purgatory from Christianity?) and you will live a better life now. It's also a far more intelligent way (IMO) to cope with morality: You're not told what to do, instead you're told to respect others. (That's a view many Atheists take) It also tells you that primarily, you've got to get your own conscience in order, no God can tell you that you're OK.

I'm rambling, am I not?

Easy answers first.

Posted By: breezysprevisedMakes enough sens, but why is it the fierce burning of hell. All the other shit you experience before these revelations should be hell enough, so, this all should be freeing, refreshing and joyous.

Sometimes a cleansing process is painful. Don't forget, the fires of hell are there to strip away the unnecessary/bad things from your previous life.
Like I've explained earlier, the fires of hell here is to be compared with purgatory, a place where you don't stay for all eternity but rather until you've been stripped of your misdeeds.

Also, if we concentrate on LaVeyian Satanism, we need to remember that it's a symbolic satanism, not a literal one!

"There is no heaven of glory bright, and no hell where sinners roast. Here and now is our day of torment! Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day, this hour, for no redeemer liveth!”

"The Satanic Bible" by Anton LaVey (1969)"The Satanic Bible" by Anton LaVey (1969)
The Book of Satan IV:2

and

Satanic imagery frequently uses Hell as a place where power is obtained, where powerful demonic forces are called from and where our impurities are cleansed.

Posted By: breezysprevisedAnd that is just rediculous. I am rewarded with strength, will-power and all that lot because I brought myself to be so and worked hard to stay alive and be a good person. This statement above is then some Satan-guy trying to take credit for my greatness.:)

I don't think you understood what he said there.
I'll tell you a very short story to explain. There's a Japanese Anime series called DragonBall. The Hero of the story, SonGoku, is always training to become stronger and stronger. One day he learns of a master-trainer who lives on a very tall tower. He goes there and the master tells him that the source of his powers is the water he drinks. To get the water, SonGoku has to catch the master and take the bottle of water from him. When he finally manages to get the water and drink it, he feels no immediate change.
It is then that the master reveals to SonGoku that it was not the water that changed him, but the training in trying to obtain the water. The same is said here. Take this difficult path to (the symbolic) Hell and when you've completed your journey, you will be more independent and self-reliant (a Satanist usually travels alone), strong and lots of will-power (it's a difficult path) and generally powers that enable you to be successful. (I'm not sure if he's talking about magic here or earthly powers, after all many Satanists practice ritualistic magic. Well, actually magick.)

So quite the contrary, he's not taking any credit, he's saying that only your choices and actions can make you better. (Contrary to the Christian "praying to be a better person" BS) It's always about what you deserve!

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

Posted By: breezysprevisedAlso the whole thing about darkness and shadows is bit confusing

What exactly is confusing? Ask a specific question and I'll try to answer.

Posted By: breezysprevisedIt would make sense if the darkness as explaines was a right that you posess and not something you need to seek out or what not. And can only really picture it as something positive(or negative at that) if it relates to nothingness that you "find" by way of meditation. But that does not seen to be what this guy is saying here.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Darkness has nothing to do with nothingness, it's simply a place where you feel comfortable. To a Satanist, one of the few things one shouldn't do is put oneself in the spotlight. (At least not if there's no reason for it.) That's why they usually abhor people like Paris Hilton or some other fakes like her.
The darkness then is your own place you can retreat to, not be bothered and watch other people make a fool of themselves. It's the unknown, a place that you can explore.

Posted By: breezysprevisedBut that is a completely selfish agreement,

I don't think that's necessarily true, but let's for a moment accept that's actually true.
SO WHAT? That's exactly the point of Satanism. No Herd-Conformity just for the sake of it, only do it if it benefits you. No Lack of Perspective, always keep in mind who you are, don't change just to fit in.

Nine Satanic Sins
The Nine Satanic Statements

Posted By: breezysprevisedBUT complaining can also be very fun and freeing. Sometimes it can be a good passtime.

2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
'Nuff said.

Posted By: breezysprevisedIf it exists than god and satan are in argument about what hell is.

Not at all. Read the Bible carefully (preferably with annotations to explain which word has been used, i.e Gehenna, Sheol, Tartaros, or Hades. As explained on this site I've already linked, the Christians pieced together their Hell from different cultures.
Also as explained above, it might be that they're looking at the exact hell but see completely different symbols in it. (See darkness vs light)

Aw shucks VFX, I thought there would be more people to bite the bait of this interesting subject. Stay on...;)

Posted By: InfernoSometimes a cleansing process is painful. Don't forget, the fires of hell are there to strip away the unnecessary/bad things from your previous life.
Like I've explained earlier, the fires of hell here is to be compared with purgatory, a place where you don't stay for all eternity but rather until you've been stripped of your misdeeds.

Also, if we concentrate on LaVeyian Satanism, we need to remember that it's a symbolic satanism, not a literal one!

Okay, get it. It still seems a bit of an easy out or better said, a lakc of creativity to take the dark side explained in christianity and use all of its symbolism as their own. To their own could be argued, and that is definately true.

Posted By: InfernoSatanic imagery frequently uses Hell as a place where power is obtained, where powerful demonic forces are called from and where our impurities are cleansed.

But are you reading that? How could that be symbolic. Life gives me life lessons. Not demonic forces. My impurities do not become cleansed, they merely disappear and the aftermath is dealt with by my psyche which is a forgiving and wise one, therefore the fact that I learn from my mistakes would make for whatever "purification" and the fact that I love myself and understand why I was so stupid in the first place keeps me from committing suicide over my stupidities. No "demons" can do this for me.

Posted By: Inferno

And that is just rediculous. I am rewarded with strength, will-power and all that lot because I brought myself to be so and worked hard to stay alive and be a good person. This statement above is then some Satan-guy trying to take credit for my greatness.:)

I don't think you understood what he said there.
I'll tell you a very short story to explain. There's a Japanese Anime series called DragonBall. The Hero of the story, SonGoku, is always training to become stronger and stronger. One day he learns of a master-trainer who lives on a very tall tower. He goes there and the master tells him that the source of his powers is the water he drinks. To get the water, SonGoku has to catch the master and take the bottle of water from him. When he finally manages to get the water and drink it, he feels no immediate change.
It is then that the master reveals to SonGoku that it was not the water that changed him, but the training in trying to obtain the water. The same is said here. Take this difficult path to (the symbolic) Hell and when you've completed your journey, you will be more independent and self-reliant (a Satanist usually travels alone), strong and lots of will-power (it's a difficult path) and generally powers that enable you to be successful.

That makes sense. Still, it would be life itself that guides me, personally through all of these things and not a bunch of rules. Rules are there for necessity and I kind of kick at them when they come at me. But I see what you are saying.

Posted By: Inferno(I'm not sure if he's talking about magic here or earthly powers, after all many Satanists practice ritualistic magic. Well, actually magick.)

So, when I was a teen I dabbled in some of that. But just the happy stuff.

Posted By: InfernoSo quite the contrary, he's not taking any credit, he's saying that only your choices and actions can make you better. (Contrary to the Christian "praying to be a better person" BS) It's always about what you deserve!

I have been hearing quite a lot of that lately and it has done wonders.:) Do you think ALL of those people who are telling me I am great might be DUNDUNDUUUUUNNNNNN...................???!!!:)

Posted By: Inferno4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

Common logic. I am too much of a masochist still, at this point to agree fully with that.lol

Posted By: Inferno

It would make sense if the darkness as explaines was a right that you posess and not something you need to seek out or what not. And can only really picture it as something positive(or negative at that) if it relates to nothingness that you "find" by way of meditation. But that does not seen to be what this guy is saying here.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Darkness has nothing to do with nothingness, it's simply a place where you feel comfortable. To a Satanist, one of the few things one shouldn't do is put oneself in the spotlight. (At least not if there's no reason for it.) That's why they usually abhor people like Paris Hilton or some other fakes like her.
The darkness then is your own place you can retreat to, not be bothered and watch other people make a fool of themselves. It's the unknown, a place that you can explore.

What I meant to say(later after I had turned my computer off or was onto other things or something or actually before I said this but then got side-tracked) is that darkness to me has become nothing more than the absence of light. You have to understand that this concept is a huge deal within the religion I came out of(The absence of light! The absence of light! Whatever would we do!!!).Only understand it because it is hilarious... Nothing changes in the dark. I am the same, my family is the same, my furniture is the same, it's all the same. So, I would now not be more comfortable in the darkness than I am in the light. You notice different things in the dark than you would in the light. Like you hear the cars driving by in the street much louder at night than you would in the day, even though there are less of them. Light is just as unknown to me as dark, because things happen in the light and people are moving an interesting.

I just took all of that way too literally, didn't I?! Oops. Okay. I will have to look at it again with the symbolism. ......................Hm. Totally at loss. I like Paris Hilton. She's cute. But as for going to a place called darkness. I would still have to understand better what is meant by the darkness. You don't like the way I say that, so I will ask you. Uhm, tell me about this darkness you speak of, Inferno. Oh, I mean, WILL YOU????;)

Posted By: Inferno

But that is a completely selfish agreement,

I don't think that's necessarily true, but let's for a moment accept that's actually true.
SO WHAT? That's exactly the point of Satanism. No Herd-Conformity just for the sake of it, only do it if it benefits you. No Lack of Perspective, always keep in mind who you are, don't change just to fit in.

Okay.

Posted By: InfernoNine Satanic Sins
The Nine Satanic Statements

Posted By: breezysprevisedBUT complaining can also be very fun and freeing. Sometimes it can be a good passtime.

2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
'Nuff said.

Read the statements over half a year ago and could agree with almost everything if tweaked a bit, remember???

And, yes, that is my point about the complaining.

Posted By: Inferno

If it exists than god and satan are in argument about what hell is.

Not at all. Read the Bible carefully (preferably with annotations to explain which word has been used, i.e Gehenna, Sheol, Tartaros, or Hades. As explained onthis site I've already linked, the Christians pieced together their Hell from different cultures.
Also as explained above, it might be that they're looking at the exact hell but see completely different symbols in it. (See darkness vs light)

I meant if it were true, literally. But it does make sense that if it was literally true they could be seeing different symbols in it, but then my mind would be spacing.

Posted By: breezysprevisedIt still seems a bit of an easy out or better said, a lakc of creativity to take the dark side explained in christianity and use all of its symbolism as their own.

All the while, the christians were OH SO CREATIVE, right? ;)
So what if it wasn't creative? Did they ever claim that it was? Of course not. Quite the contrary, Satanists are probably the only religion out there (at least the only one I know) who admit that they've borrowed from other religions.

Posted By: breezysprevisedBut are you reading that? How could that be symbolic. Life gives me life lessons. Not demonic forces. My impurities do not become cleansed, they merely disappear and the aftermath is dealt with by my psyche which is a forgiving and wise one, therefore the fact that I learn from my mistakes would make for whatever "purification" and the fact that I love myself and understand why I was so stupid in the first place keeps me from committing suicide over my stupidities. No "demons" can do this for me.

You forget that most Satanists believe very strongly in the power of witchcraft. I'm too tired to explain it all, you should be able to understand it on your own now.

Posted By: breezysprevisedStill, it would be life itself that guides me, personally through all of these things and not a bunch of rules.

Back when you were a christian, did the rules guide you? Are the believers today guided by rules?

Posted By: breezysprevisedWhat I meant to say(later after I had turned my computer off or was onto other things or something or actually before I said this but then got side-tracked) is that darkness to me has become nothing more than the absence of light. You have to understand that this concept is a huge deal within the religion I came out of(The absence of light! The absence of light! Whatever would we do!!!).Only understand it because it is hilarious... Nothing changes in the dark. I am the same, my family is the same, my furniture is the same, it's all the same. So, I would now not be more comfortable in the darkness than I am in the light. You notice different things in the dark than you would in the light. Like you hear the cars driving by in the street much louder at night than you would in the day, even though there are less of them. Light is just as unknown to me as dark, because things happen in the light and people are moving an interesting.

I just took all of that way too literally, didn't I?! Oops. Okay. I will have to look at it again with the symbolism. ......................Hm. Totally at loss. I like Paris Hilton. She's cute. But as for going to a place called darkness. I would still have to understand better what is meant by the darkness. You don't like the way I say that, so I will ask you. Uhm, tell me about this darkness you speak of, Inferno. Oh, I mean, WILL YOU????;)

"Darkness" simply means "a place where noone can see you but where you can see everyone". Obviously, "place" isn't literal, it's not like you're standing in an alley behind the dumpster or something. It simply means "go through life without drawing unwarrented attention to yourself, notice other people but remain unnoticed".

Also, it's not about what changes in the darkness or in the light, it's simply about knowing what is there. If I take a flashlight and shine at a room, I can see what is there and therefore I don't have to fear it. If I don't have a flashlight, there might be all sorts of monsters waiting for me.
A Christian will be scared of the darkness because he doesn't know what is there. A Satanist will be happy about the darkness, because there is still something to be explored.