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1. •  
     CommentAuthorMATT
   • CommentTimeJul 30th 2010 edited

    
   I just decided to post a conversation I'm having with a good friend of mine of facebook about abortion.
   
   Luke: [Long rant about the hypocrisy of poeple who are for the right to abort children and agaisnt the death penalty.]
   
   Matt: Personally, I don't have a problem with the death penalty or abortion.
   
   The way I see it, if a woman doesn't want an adorable parasite screwing with the body for the better part of a year, then they can get rid of it.
   
   Luke: My problem is the killing of the child. A life that should happen doesn't. Not to mention that the woman has to risk never recovering emotionally, becoming infertile and possibly death. It's bad for the child and the woman.
   
   Matt: Yes Luke, its dangerous, but its also the woman's body, which the baby is a part of until it is born. Telling a woman she can't do it because it could hurt her is censorship. If we're going to do that then we need to drop everything that could potentially hurt someone, despite them being aware of the dangers and and still wanting to partake upon. Like cigarettes, or extreme sports, or driving.
   
   Luke: Coming from a biblical perspective. The bible speaks of God knowing a child from the womb. That means it's not part of the womans body, it's its own being.
   No matter what you believe, abortion is still a matter of humans choosing who lives and dies which is not their right or responsibility.
   Also extreme sports and driving are dangerous but people practice and work at it so that it is not as dangerous. Smoking is just as dangerous as it always is, but laws are being made so that the only person hurt by smoking is the person with the cigarette.
   My problem with abortions lies in the fact that it's not just a woman deciding what she wants to do with her body, it's a decision of life and death and not all parties involved get a say. If pro choice is the womans right to choose, pro life is the infants right to choose, and in many cases the woman already chose to partake in intercourse before they were ready to deal with the consequences.
   
   Matt: Take responsibility? Why should they? Its not like having sex is some kind of evil that you have to pay for with having children. The baby is an unnecessary burden and honestly, if a woman doesn't feel like going through loads of pain for a creature that will be burden to her or someone else for many years, I don't think she has to.
   
   Obviously abortion is killing what has the potential to be a human being. And if you're against abortion because the baby does not have a say, then why not be against sex, because the baby doesn't choose to be concieved either.
   
   Pro life is not the infant right to choose, its taking the woman's right to choose away, because pro lifers have already chosen for the baby that it must live. There's no choice for either of the involved parties in that situation.
   
   Though I don't want people aborting babies all willy nilly, and I agree people should be having proctected sex if they don't want a kid, but if someone isn't ready or has no desire to give birth, nowhere is there any rule that says they have to. The woman has to go through various health risks and pains for the sake of the baby even when she wants to keep it, and if she doesn't want to go through gruelling nine month slog for a kid she's just going to give away then I don't think she should have to.
   
   In a world where having kids was easy for women, then I'd be against abortion, but the fact of the matter is that carrying a child sucks and giving birth sucks, and if someone doesn't want to deal with all that suck just to throw to the kid away or watse thousands of dollars a year on keeping the thing alive, then I don't think people should make them.
   
   Besides, its not like the kid will mind.
   
   Luke: Is nine months really such a big price to pay, for not being emotionally scared the rest of your life. Is nine months and some pain, maybe because you were stupid and had unprotected sex, really so great a price to pay when having an abortion could make you infertile. Is it really so bad you'll risk feeling guilty the rest of your life? I don't know what child birth is like, but I know just how bad guilt can feel. I more meant that pro life is the babies right to be born and make choice of it's own.
   And like all things, sex wasn't evil but humans have perverted it. What was meant as an act of love is now something done between strangers. As millions will tell you having a child, though hard is not a burden nor a price you pay but a benefit.
   Also I find it strange that were someone to kill a child seconds after birth or maybe even before, they would be monsters of the worse caliber, however, seemingly if you kill them months before hand you are entitled to the order of Canada (you know who you are).
   No fetus gets a choice in being conceived. No one is saying life is easy, but how many would choose never being born over life.
   And who are we to say the child doesn't mind. Do we know for sure that when it happens the fetus isn't wishing it won't, isn't wishing for life. Who are you or I to say.
   And once again, abortion is yet another way people are shruggin responsibility. There is pain in child birth, and the journey to. I'm not against sex, but people have to go in knowing they could get pregnant which is difficult. If they do they should take responsibility, both parents. As human take less and less responsibility for our actions we move further and further towards a much worse place.
   
   Matt: Luke, if someone is already going to get an abortion, that means they don't think its wrong, and they aren't going to be scarred, or probably even feeling a little guilty after wards. Saying its bad because it makes you feel guilt called begging the question, because the only reason you feel guilty is because you already think its bad anyway. And you think its bad because it makes you feel guilty, see where this is going? Nowhere, that's right.
   
   Yes, Luke, we have established that there are dangers, and if someone chooses to take the risks and take the easy way out of pregnancy, then they have accepted that they could do something like become infertile. If that's the case then they can take advantage of the fact that some people don't want to have abortions and instead put their children up for adoption, if they ever desire to have a child.
   
   How have we perverted sex? Sex is an act of reproduction that some idealistic people want to call an act of love. Hey, it can be an act of love, but looking at the whole world, sex seems to generally be an act of reproduction that we mix in with our more complex emotions, like love.
   
   You see the reason people say that having kids is awesome after they've done it is because we have horomones that mess with out heads and make us love our kids even if we didn't want them in the first place. And besides, alot of people don't want to give up the rest of their youth for child, and would rather wait until the age when their youth is waning to settle down and commit to having a child.
   
   Well, after birth all the pain and suffering of the woman is pretty much over. Killing the thing then would be pointless, you might as well give it away if you don't want it.
   
   Nobody would choose not to have been born as far as I know, but we humans have this thing is us called emotions, and a few other psychological predispositions that make us want to live for the sake of reproduction. There's no logical reason to want to live, only the irrational desire to feel irrationally good.
   
   Well, seeing as the child is not concious, and not even at the stage of being an infant, I don't think it is capable of minding, but I suppose I might not know.
   
   I understand that you think they should take responsibility, but why? What purpose is there in taking responsibility for having sex? Its really the opposite of fun, which is the only thing really worth living for in my humble opinion.
   
   The world seems to be getting better so far, maybe its just me.
   
   I suppose this maybe boils down to basic ideological differences, Luke? We do know that I am an atheist, and as such I don't believe in objecitve good and bad or the sanctity of life.
2. •  
     CommentAuthordemented cookies
   • CommentTimeJul 30th 2010

    
   *sigh* This Luke guy...some of what he said just made me sick. Men are to abortions and women are to circumcision. Men don't give birth and women don't have penises to get circumcised (well, there is that strange circumcision for women, but does anyone besides the crazy women really do that?), so it doesn't directly affect them, so they should just shut the fuck up, really."I don't intend to achieve immortality through my work. I intend to achieve it through not dying." -Woody Allen
3. •  
     CommentAuthorMATT
   • CommentTimeJul 30th 2010

    
   He's really not a bad guy, pretty nice actually, and very smart. He just happens to be christian. Too bad really.
4. •  
     CommentAuthorFearmonger
   • CommentTimeJul 30th 2010 edited

    
   Eh, it's cool. He'll knock some girl up and his views'll change. EDIT: If he's super Christian, the chances of him getting a girl preggo outside of marriage is slim. But who knows? As far as I'm concerned, it's all up to the woman. If she's aware of all the maybe's involved, and she still wants it, she should go ahead and abort that baby.
   
   I agree with what you said, though. And what DC said, for that matter.“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Suess
5. •  
     CommentAuthordemented cookies
   • CommentTimeJul 30th 2010

    

   Posted By: MATTHe's really not a bad guy, pretty nice actually, and very smart. He just happens to be christian. Too bad really."I'll take a potato chip..." Ma-ma-ma-maaaa. "And eat it!"

   
   I know what you mean. I have quite a few good friends who are nice and smart and everything, but are devout Christians. Two of them are so brainwashed they can't stand even joking about Christianity (although joking about other religions is totally cool...somehow) so I can't even trade religion jokes with them. Sucks."I don't intend to achieve immortality through my work. I intend to achieve it through not dying." -Woody Allen
6. • CommentAuthorFerdinand
   • CommentTimeJul 30th 2010

    

   Posted By: demented cookiesbut does anyone besides the crazy women really do that?

   
   
   Uhhhh.
   
   Anyway, I disagree with calling fetuses parasites. Parasites thrive at the detriment of the host. In a pregnancy, this is very untrue. The baby is at the complete mercy of its mother. The baby doesn't steal nutrients from the mother. If the mother isn't healthy enough during her pregnancy it is the fetus who suffers. I think you can compare fetus to parasite, but you can not use them interchangeably. They are not equivalent.
   
   I DO think that people should take responsibility when they have sex. Before you have sex you should be completely aware that you are indeed at risk of STIs and pregnancy. You should know of the consequences and be prepared for them. Know how you feel about abortion, know the consequences of pregnancy and abortion. Men should be aware that the chance of pregnancy is there, and whether they believe or don't believe in abortion, potentially, their potential child is held completely by the whims of its mother. You don't have much say if you want to keep the baby, or if you don't. So be prepared to mourn the death of your child if you will, or be prepared to fork over money to pay for a kid whether or not you wanted it. Men put a lot of trust into their girls with birth control, but if the girl messes up just a little he's screwed over (so is she, not trying to make women sound bad).
   
   I disagree with DC about men and women should shut up when the issue doesn't affect them. But in circumcision's case, it is the woman's child. In abortion's case, it is the man's sperm. I do completely think that men shouldn't force their girl into carrying a baby, but if he could argue to move the fetus into another womb for carrying it, than that would be a legitimate argument. He has no say over a woman's body, but he should have a say over his offspring.Standing in the sun with my heart in my hand
7. •  
     CommentAuthorMATT
   • CommentTimeJul 30th 2010

    
   "Parasites thrive at the detriment of the host."
   So, the mother has to eat twice as much and feels sick all the time. This makes the fetus grow into a sustainable person. I don't get it.
   
   People know of the consequences, they are prepared for them with medicine and abortion.
   
   In circumcision's case, it is the baby's already born, completey independant body. In abortion's case, it is the result of egg and sperm feeding off of a woman's body.
   
   Though I can sympathize with a man who want's a child and pregnant partner who wants to get an abortion, that's his offspring, sure, which is a part of his partner's body, until it is born.
8. •  
     CommentAuthorFearmonger
   • CommentTimeJul 30th 2010

    

   Posted By: FerdinandHe has no say over a woman's body, but he should have a say over his offspring.

   Well if he wanted kids, he should have talked it over and made sure she wanted them too. Of course, if she didn't want kids, she should of thought of that, and made sure some form of contraception was being used.

   I concur: Ferdinand

   “Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Suess
9. •  
     CommentAuthorMATT
   • CommentTimeJul 30th 2010

    
   Yes, I think abortion should be a last resort. But that's just my idealism, any form of contraception if killing what was probably gong to be a person one day.
10. • CommentAuthorFerdinand
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2010

     

    Posted By: MATTSo, the mother has to eat twice as much and feels sick all the time.

    
    
    Women do not have to eat twice as much. The extra caloric intake a day is equivalent to a few extra pieces of fruit. Feels sick all the time? Eh, not anyone I know. But I admit that I have not read anything that says morning sickness CAN'T be all day every day full term.
    
    But yeah, not a parasite. When a woman diets while pregnant, the fetus is the one who loses the nutrients and suffers, not the mom. When the mother drinks, when she smokes, it's her hurting the fetus, not the other way around. You are vulnerable when you are pregnant, but much less so than the fetus inside of you.
    
    

    Posted By: MATTPeople know of the consequences, they are prepared for them with medicine and abortion.

    
    
    Speak for yourself.Standing in the sun with my heart in my hand
11. •  
      CommentAuthorMATT
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2010

     
    Huh, I guess I've been being told exaggerated stories about pregnancy. But th dangers of pregnancy barely even factor in over whether a woman wants to have a baby or not.
    
    I'm just saying, people who are willing to use contraception are prepared, and are taking responsibility by using contraception.
12. •  
      CommentAuthorsimplyviennaaa
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2010

     
    Yeah, no offense Matt but I'm not a big fan of this Luke fellow. I'm pro choice because I feel that in order to have a child, there are many aspects that should be considered. Can you afford the baby? Is it a good time for you to personally commit and be a provider for someone else? Are you ready to take on the responsibility of someone else's life? etc;
    I'd rather abort than give my baby up for adoption. I couldn't live with giving a child away, but if I aborted within the first eight weeks, I could eventually get over that. I do think it is important though for anyone who is having sex to realize that even using once form of contraception can fail, so be prepared.
    Now I'm ranting. Gah."When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity; when many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."
13. •  
      CommentAuthorvenomfangx
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2010

     
    Archduke
    I thought there were enough people in this world already. Getting rid of a few unborn babies is no issue.Généralement, les gens qui savant peu parlent becoup, et les gens qui savant beaucoup parlent peu.
14. •  
      CommentAuthorsimplyviennaaa
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2010

     
    VFX- this isn't exactly the most positive thread to say this but, I have to admit, I have missed your witty comments. :)"When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity; when many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."
15. •  
      CommentAuthorbreezyspreezy
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2010 edited

     

    Posted By: MATTNot to mention that the woman has to risk never recovering emotionally, becoming infertile and possibly death.

    
    
    Except for infertility these things are just as likely to happen when carrying through the pregnancy. Scare tactics FTW!
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: MATTis still a matter of humans choosing who lives and dies which is not their right or responsibility.

    
    
    So, how do you feel about war?
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: MATTbut the fact of the matter is that carrying a child sucks

    
    
    Huge generalisation, depends on the individual pregnancy, that's the beauty of nature.
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: MATThaving kids is awesome after they've done it is because we have horomones that mess with out heads and make us love our kids even if we didn't want them in the first place.

    
    
    Speculation. Tons of women have extreme depression and a disconnet after giving birth to their child and the cause of these depressions is often hormonal. Kids are actually awesome. Would you have guessed?
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: FerdinandFeels sick all the time? Eh, not anyone I know.

    
    
    And I know tons of them.
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: FerdinandWhen a woman diets while pregnant, the fetus is the one who loses the nutrients and suffers, not the mom.

    
    
    Actually, it is often the case that in the first 3 months a woman barely gets enough nutrients in for herself as she is puking most of the time, sometimes all day everyday. It's the nice cases where it is just a couple times in the morning. And guess how the fetus gets it's nutrients then? It will literally get it's nutrients from the woman's organs(I couldn't tell you exactly how it works, but it works.). So, yes, a bit like a parasite. Only difference is, no, as you said, it is not harmful.
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: FerdinandYou are vulnerable when you are pregnant, but much less so than the fetus inside of you.

    
    
    hmmm. let's look at that. What a romantic idea! But an idea at most. A fetus either has the genes to pull through all kinds of tough shit from the beginning just as the mother, or it doesn't same being for Mom. I think what you mean to say is if your fetus was put out into a dark alley on the streets of Detroit it is more vulnerable. Have a little faith in a Momma's belly.
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: Ferdinandtheir potential child is held completely by the whims of its mother.

    
    
    Mostly when it comes to staying in the belly or not.
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: MATT

    • CommentAuthorMATT
    • CommentTime7 hours ago

    concurquote

    Huh, I guess I've been being told exaggerated stories about pregnancy.

    
    
    Yeah, both you and her.
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: FerdinandMen put a lot of trust into their girls with birth control, but if the girl messes up just a little he's screwed over (so is she, not trying to make women sound bad).

    
    
    That is why they have those little spirals with hormones in them. It's hard to skip a day with those.
    
    WARNING: EMOTIVE PARAGRAPH NEXT
    
    Now, Last week a geneticist eplained to me that I have a broken X-gene and that if I ever want to have kids I either have to get a test in the 11th week of pregnancy to check for the progression of the gene(it is not a problem just yet) OR put my eggs in little petry dishes and have them inseminated then tested then place back in my lovely womb. Actually I have known this vaguely for a couple of months, but I got the full description the other week. The guy is of the opinion that the 11 week test and termination if there is something wrong is the better way to go. I am not of that opinion. But that is for me, personally, because I know myself and how I emotionally drawn. He said in his experience the process of petry dishes seems to be more gruelling for people than the termination of a pregnancy. There is a 25% chance the gene will have bad implications, So, that would mean, 1 in four pregnancy would be terminated. With the petry dish option there the security getting it right the first time, but less chance the pregnancy will take. Since there is no changing your mind now, Ferdinand, as there is a set idea about people who get pregnant and there situations. I would ask you to copy/paste this paragraph and then next time you want to make a baby and raise a child, read it to yourself as if it is being said to you. Then think about which way you would go.(\__/) (='.'=) (")_(")
16. •  
      CommentAuthorbreezyspreezy
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2010

     
    Aah. That's better. That took too longg to edit. Acisdently made last paragraph giant.(\__/) (='.'=) (")_(")
17. •  
      CommentAuthorMATT
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2010

     
    "Huge generalisation, depends on the individual pregnancy, that's the beauty of nature."
    
    I didn't realise there were different degress of generalisation. But that's not the point, yeah, they're not all the same, some of them might not even be bad at all, too bad its still the woman's body and her right to choose whether she want to have a kid or not.
    
    "Speculation. Tons of women have extreme depression and a disconnet after giving birth to their child and the cause of these depressions is often hormonal. Kids are actually awesome. Would you have guessed?"
    
    Actually, its generalization, and generalization of what is true in what I'm going to speculate is most situations.
    
    Kids aren't awesome, they feed off of you and manipulate your emotions by being cute so you keep feeding them. Its not their fault, but that's how it works.
    
    "Yeah, both you and her."
    
    Just completely ignore the fact that that's obviously what I meant.
    Besides, I don't want kids, or even sex very much, in the first place.
18. •  
      CommentAuthorbreezyspreezy
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2010

     

    Posted By: MATTI didn't realise there were different degress of generalisation.

    
    
    Good point.
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: MATTBut that's not the point, yeah, they're not all the same, some of them might not even be bad at all, too bad its still the woman's body and her right to choose whether she want to have a kid or not.

    
    
    Did I SAY that? I don't see how one has anything to do with the other.
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: MATTActually, its generalization, and generalization of what is true in what I'm going to speculate is most situations.

    
    
    I don't know what the numbers are, but it is a big enough number to be recognised.
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: MATTKids aren't awesome, they feed off of you and manipulate your emotions by being cute so you keep feeding them. Its not their fault, but that's how it works.
    

    
    
    
    Aaaaaawww!!! So cute!
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: MATTJust completely ignore the fact that that's obviously what I meant.

    
    
    Ha, yeah sorry, missed that.:)
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: MATTBesides, I don't want kids, or even sex very much, in the first place.

    
    
    Hm, well then that would put in a strange position for a discussion YOU started. It's something you don't care about, don't have to worry about too much and have little knowledge about as it is. In seeing you were not trying to learn anything by posting it, but merely stating your opinion, keeping the first and second sentence in mind, it's moot.
    
    
    MWUHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(\__/) (='.'=) (")_(")
19. •  
      CommentAuthorMATT
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2010

     
    "Did I SAY that? I don't see how one has anything to do with the other."
    It's barely related, in fact the whole point about pregnancy being uncomfortable has no bearing over whether a woman should be able to choose if she wants to be pregnant or not. I'm not sure why I brought it up.
    
    "Hm, well then that would put in a strange position for a discussion YOU started. It's something you don't care about, don't have to worry about too much and have little knowledge about as it is. In seeing you were not trying to learn anything by posting it, but merely stating your opinion, keeping the first and second sentence in mind, it's moot.
    
    
    MWUHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
    Heh, its called moral outrage Breezy, I've learned to be able to feel it twenty years ahead of time. I don't believe someone shouldn't be able to have an opinion of something just because it does not affect them.
20. •  
      CommentAuthorbreezyspreezy
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2010

     

    Posted By: MATTIt's barely related, in fact the whole point about pregnancy being uncomfortable has no bearing over whether a woman should be able to choose if she wants to be pregnant or not. I'm not sure why I brought it up.
    

    
    
    Thank you.
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: MATTHeh, its called moral outrage Breezy, I've learned to be able to feel it twenty years ahead of time. I don't believe someone shouldn't be able to have an opinion of something just because it does not affect them.

    
    
    Okay then, I just felt like bringing you down.:)(\__/) (='.'=) (")_(")
21. •  
      CommentAuthorMATT
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2010 edited

     
    Mother fuckin' UPDATE.
    
    Random lady: speaking as a women who gave birth. Being pregnant is not a painful process for most people. at only 8 weeks the fetus has all its organs and they are working. Life is something that should be sacred. Having kids was a wonderful experience and even the pain of childbirth was worth it to see the little life that was produced in love. Abortion is used today as a birth control method and it allows people to go around sleeping with anyone and when oops "I'm pregnat happens than we just despose of it like garbage. There is never an unwanted baby just an unwanted pregnacey. If you arn't ready to have a baby than you shouldn't be having sex. Sex was made by God as a special thing between husbands and wifes in the marriage. The world has polluted it to just being there for fun.
    
    As to there being not right or wrong in this world than how can we exist. If everyone has there own view of right and wrong than the world would be in chaos because what one person things is okay may be not okay for the other person. No matter what you say there has to be a distinction. Paul Bernardo might have thought that what he was doing was right in his eyes. So if there is no right and wrong than how come we put him in jail. There has to be a distinction.
    
    I am going to stop rambling now. Good work Luke.
    
    Matt: I was speaking with some other people earlier and discovered this myself, apparently I was wrong. But regardless of whether or not pregnancy is painful or easy, the woman's body is being used as a vessel, and I think she should be able to choose. And if contraception is available, why is it not a valid form of taking responsibility for having unproctected sex? Once again, this boils down to your religious opinion that life must live and my social opinion that being forced to do anything is infringing upon a person's rights. And then on top of that, that you belive that a person is a person at conception and I do not. But I think the fetus should be subject to the mother's will as long as it is one with her body. After it becomes an independant organism, then there's no birthing to avoid and thus there's really no reason to kill it, there's willing adoptive parents all over the place.
    
    Having kids may be a wonderful experience, but I think any person has every right to not experience it if they choose.
    
    Dispose of it like garbage is right, just one more dead sperm and egg cell really. Do you know how many potential people die just during sex? One single sperm cell out of millions get to be a person, and really, if you against contraception, why not against sex in general? And who's to say that any life was meant to happen anyway? If it was aborted, then it must have been God's plan. Indeed, since abortion exists, then God planned it that way, being the omniscient being He is, right? That means He knows everything, including that we would eventually create abortion, and since He designed the universe personally, He obviously intended it to happen.
    
    If you think the world polluted God's gift, just remember that He created the world too.
    
    I think that alot of what you said is only your personal opinion, I say there is such a thing as an unwanted baby, now try and falsify that. You can't right? That's why your point point is subjective.
    
    I said there's no objective right and wrong, whatever this guy did, he wass put in jail because society's laws demanded it. The distinction is what we decide it to be.
    
    For example, a long time ago, it would be perfectly acceptable to stone someone to death for being gay, but people who did that now would be put int jail, that's pretty much as blatant as it gets in showing that societal values change and right and wrong are subjective.
    
    Whatever, arguing about these things never goes anywhere anyway.
    
    Life. It's annoying.
22. •  
      CommentAuthorFearmonger
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2010

     

    Posted By: MATTSex was made by God as a special thing between husbands and wifes in the marriage. The world has polluted it to just being there for fun.

    She lost me here.“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Suess
23. •  
      CommentAuthordemented cookies
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2010 edited

     

    Posted By: FerdinandBut yeah, not a parasite.

    
    *sigh* Must I do this again? I already explained it to kazza.
    
    

    Webster's Unabridged Dictionary Parasite, n
    1, in ancient Greece, (a) a person who flattered and amused his host in return for free meals; (b) a priest's helper who feasted with the priests after sacrificial rites.
    2. a person who lives at the expense of another or others without making any useful contribution or return; a hanger-on.
    3. in biology, a plant or animal that lives on or within another organism, from which it derives sustenance or protection without making compensation.
    4. in mineralogy, a plumose variety of boracite, resulting from partial alteration.
    Syn--sycophant, fawner, flatterer, toady, wheedler.

    
    It is a fact, not an opinion, that a fetus fits both the second and third definition. Therefore, a fetus is a parasite, whether you like it or not. A fetus is definitely a parasite until it leaves the womb, although what it can be called after it's born is up for debate. It probably depends on the child."I don't intend to achieve immortality through my work. I intend to achieve it through not dying." -Woody Allen
24. • CommentAuthorFerdinand
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2010

     

    Posted By: breezyspreezyAnd I know tons of them.

    
    
    

    Posted By: breezyspreezy, it is often the case that in the first 3 months a woman barely gets enough nutrients in for herself as she is puking most of the time, sometimes all day everyday.

    
    
    And you think I'VE been told exaggerated stories about pregnancy? I guess "tons" and "often" are very relative terms. I am not naive about pregnancy. Some are bedridden, some can lead very active lifestyles. Some can get smashingly drunk every day and their child can still miraculously walk and talk, while others don't have quite a strong filter. But, most people fall in a medium. Extreme morning sickness, Hyperemesis gravidarum, occurs in less than 2% of pregnant women. About half of women don't get morning sickness at all. I am sorry if your body does not handle pregnancy well.
    
    

    Posted By: breezyspreezyNow, Last week a geneticist eplained to me that I have a broken X-gene and that if I ever want to have kids I either have to get a test in the 11th week of pregnancy to check for the progression of the gene(it is not a problem just yet) OR put my eggs in little petry dishes and have them inseminated then tested then place back in my lovely womb. Actually I have known this vaguely for a couple of months, but I got the full description the other week. The guy is of the opinion that the 11 week test and termination if there is something wrong is the better way to go. I am not of that opinion. But that is for me, personally, because I know myself and how I emotionally drawn. He said in his experience the process of petry dishes seems to be more gruelling for people than the termination of a pregnancy. There is a 25% chance the gene will have bad implications, So, that would mean, 1 in four pregnancy would be terminated. With the petry dish option there the security getting it right the first time, but less chance the pregnancy will take. Since there is no changing your mind now, Ferdinand, as there is a set idea about people who get pregnant and there situations. I would ask you to copy/paste this paragraph and then next time you want to make a baby and raise a child, read it to yourself as if it is being said to you. Then think about which way you would go.

    
    
    What do you mean, which way I would go? If I were in your position? Or my own? What are you trying to say here? That you can have babies that aren't perfect? Is this a surprise? I don't get your point.
    
    

    Posted By: demented cookiesIt is a fact, not an opinion, that a fetus fits both the second and third definition. Therefore, a fetus is a parasite, whether you like it or not. A fetus is definitely a parasite until it leaves the womb, although what it can be called after it's born is up for debate. It probably depends on the child.

    
    
    Oh, sure it's a fact. If what you say is true, than all children are parasites. Child can not survive without a caretaker, child is incredibly selfish. You are probably a parasite, DC. Do you have your own home and buy your own food with your own job?
    
    No, but I still disagree offspring are not parasites because they do contribute. They are the spread of the parents genes. That is why all animals reproduce, and why when you read about parasites in school it's not a big chapter on mammalian fetus development. In the human world, you are incredibly useless, taking up space, and wasting so much while contributing so little. But for science? This is how nature works. There is a purpose. All animals want to spread genes.Standing in the sun with my heart in my hand
25. •  
      CommentAuthorvenomfangx
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2010

     
    Archduke

    Posted By: FerdinandAll animals want to spread genes.

    
    They do not want to as they do not know what they do.Généralement, les gens qui savant peu parlent becoup, et les gens qui savant beaucoup parlent peu.
26. •  
      CommentAuthorProletariatTreeHuger
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2010

     
    Perhaps it's how you want to look at it
    http://www.l4l.org/library/notparas.html
27. •  
      CommentAuthorbreezyspreezy
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2010

     

    Posted By: FerdinandAnd you think I'VE been told exaggerated stories about pregnancy? I guess "tons" and "often" are very relative terms.

    
    
    DUH.
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: FerdinandSome can get smashingly drunk every day and their child can still miraculously walk and talk, while others don't have quite a strong filter. But, most people fall in a medium.

    
    
    No, there isn't a medium with pregnancy and deliveries. Every single one is different. There might be an average, but not a medium.
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: FerdinandExtreme morning sickness, Hyperemesis gravidarum, occurs in less than 2% of pregnant women. About half of women don't get morning sickness at all.

    
    
    Show me where you got this info, please.
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: FerdinandI am sorry if your body does not handle pregnancy well.

    
    
    I believe you missed the point. E-V-E-R-Y--- P-R-E-G-N-A-N-C-Y--- I-S--- D-I-F-F-E-R-E-N-T.
    
    How would you explain a woman then who has had 5 children, each pregnancy with different but definitive details?
    
    You are so in the dark, obviously, I don't even know if it is worth continuing this with you.:)
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: FerdinandWhat do you mean, which way I would go? If I were in your position? Or my own? What are you trying to say here? That you can have babies that aren't perfect? Is this a surprise? I don't get your point.

    
    
    
    Wasn't this the ABORTION DISCUSSION??? What would my question pertain to, then? *grumbles and swears under breath*
    
    OMG, Ferdinand, I actually had to go back and make sure we are indeed on an abortion thread.(\__/) (='.'=) (")_(")
28. • CommentAuthorFerdinand
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2010

     

    Posted By: breezyspreezyNo, there isn't a medium with pregnancy and deliveries. Every single one is different. There might be an average, but not a medium.

    
    
    Most people do not have extremes in pregnancy. Most people, therefore, fall into a medium. Yes, every pregnancy is different. But the woman carrying the baby is the same, and for her, there are similarities in her pregnancies, because she is the same. Yeah, she may crave pickles in one, and nothing in others, but she is still the kind of women who can climb stairs while pregnant, but other women vary. Another woman may not experience very much pain in childbirth. Some things are different, some are the same.
    
    

    Posted By: breezyspreezyShow me where you got this info, please.

    
    
    Sure thing. Can't quote you anything for morning sickness prevalence, though, because studies have shown really different results. ABOUT fifty percent.
    
    

    Posted By: breezyspreezy
    I believe you missed the point. E-V-E-R-Y--- P-R-E-G-N-A-N-C-Y--- I-S--- D-I-F-F-E-R-E-N-T.

    
    
    LOL, the only time you made that point was in the same post. Of course I can't interrupt you typing to adjust behavior to it. Yeah, I would not like to continue with you, either, because you are unpleasant to talk to. You are impolite. So if you don't respond, no hard feelings. I may not respond to what you say next time.
    
    

    Posted By: breezyspreezy
    
    Wasn't this the ABORTION DISCUSSION??? What would my question pertain to, then?*grumbles and swears under breath*

    
    
    Yes, it is the abortion discussion. You didn't ask a question. I did. I understand the theme of your paragraph (abortion, duh), but I don't get the point. I don't see what you are saying.Standing in the sun with my heart in my hand
29. •  
      CommentAuthordemented cookies
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2010

     

    Posted By: FerdinandYou are probably a parasite, DC.

    
    I might be, according to the second definition. It depends on how my parents think about it. If they determine that I am making a useful contribution, then I am not a parasite. If they think I'm useless, then I can be considered a parasite. A fetus, though, makes no useful contributions, no matter who that fetus is going to grow up to be.
    
    

    Posted By: FerdinandDo you have your own home and buy your own food with your own job?

    
    No, I'm not old enough to live on my own, nor and I old enough to really have a job besides babysitting, nor do I make enough money to buy my own food. So, no I don't.
    
    

    Posted By: FerdinandNo, but I still disagree offspring are not parasites because they do contribute. They are the spread of the parents genes.

    
    Not yet. The genes will go nowhere unless they live to reproductive age and have their own offspring. Only then are they useful in that regard.
    But I wasn't saying that offspring are parasites. I was saying that fetuses are parasites. Not all offspring are fetuses; some are children, some are teenagers, some are adults. A fetus is a fetus: a group of cells that is growing constantly inside its mother, changing her diet habits, making her puke all the time, messing with her emotions.
    
    

    Posted By: FerdinandThat is why all animals reproduce, and why when you read about parasites in school it's not a big chapter on mammalian fetus development.

    
    There's a lot of different kinds of parasites. You can't read about them all in school. It would be redundant to read about fetuses while reading about parasites because they already come up when talking about reproduction. It doesn't mean they're not parasites. The school day and year are limited. You can't expect to learn about every little detail."I don't intend to achieve immortality through my work. I intend to achieve it through not dying." -Woody Allen
30. •  
      CommentAuthorbreezyspreezy
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2010

     

    Posted By: FerdinandYeah, I would not like to continue with you, either, because you are unpleasant to talk to. You are impolite.

    
    
    your wish is my command. You are the impolite one, though, as you haven't actually read a word I have written and I doubt when you glance at the words I have written you even really register anything. You are the unpleasant one as well, but you have been from the day you came to this place, so my bad for seeing a light at the end of the tunnel, I guess. The problem here is actually that I am too much of positive thinker and even when I have been proven time and again that there is simply no getting through to certain people, suchas yourself, I still end up trying to have a normal conversation with them. Talk to your reflection, then at least you will hear what you want to and things will be more "pleasant".(\__/) (='.'=) (")_(")
31. •  
      CommentAuthorvenomfangx
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2010

     
    Archduke

    Posted By: Ferdinandare unpleasant to talk to. You are impolite

    
    Stick to the issues and not the personality. How many times do you folk need to be spanked.Généralement, les gens qui savant peu parlent becoup, et les gens qui savant beaucoup parlent peu.
32. •  
      CommentAuthorbreezyspreezy
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2010

     

    Posted By: venomfangx

    are unpleasant to talk to. You are impolite

    
    Stick to the issues and not the personality. How many times do you folk need to be spanked.

    
    
    the only issue here is that of an ego. It bugs the begeezus out of me when people don't actually read what you type, but still try to discuss it with you. Grrrr.....
    
    
    
    Grrrr...(\__/) (='.'=) (")_(")
33. • CommentAuthorFerdinand
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2010

     

    Posted By: demented cookiesIt depends on how my parents think about it. If they determine that I am making a useful contribution, then I am not a parasite.

    
    
    Why do you say that? What would your parents consider a useful contribution? You help them use microsoft word every once in a while? You do the dishes? The cost of raising you isn't worth the chores you do. But they do love you (probably), which most people consider worth it. However, what about a mother who loves her fetus? You can love your child before it is born. Not everyone does, I imagine, but how can all fetuses be parasites if they are loved?
    
    

    Posted By: demented cookiesThe genes will go nowhere unless they live to reproductive age and have their own offspring.

    
    
    What are you talking about? The genes HAVE gone somewhere: into the baby. Why stop at a parent's grandchildren? Why not go to great, great grandchildren, etc. No, the genes have been spread when you have a child.
    
    

    Posted By: demented cookiesBut I wasn't saying that offspring are parasites. I was saying thatfetusesare parasites. Not all offspring are fetuses; some are children, some are teenagers, some are adults. A fetus is a fetus: a group of cells that is growing constantly inside its mother, changing her diet habits, making her puke all the time, messing with her emotions.

    
    
    But I pointed out the same criteria you used for fetuses could be applied to all children under the care of parents. But, by the way, you should check out the link that PTH pointed out. It had some interesting arguments.Standing in the sun with my heart in my hand
34. • CommentAuthorFerdinand
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2010

     

    Posted By: Ferdinand

    Posted By: demented cookiesbut does anyone besides the crazy women really do that?

    
    
    Uhhhh.

    
    
    Well, I let this go because I was shocked from your dismissal, but the book I am reading has some good quotes about it, so I thought I'd post them:
    
    "At the age of eight, she had been held down while her clitoris was scraped away with an unclean knife and the raw flesh sealed with inch-long acacia thorns. On her wedding night, her husband had to use his dagger to slice his way into the jagged cicatrix that had become her genitals. The pain had been the prelude to recurring agonies as she delivered four children through a birth canal choking on its own scar tissue. Here, one in five births ends in the mother's death."
    
    "If the malnourished little girls didn't bleed to death from the procedure itself, they often died from resulting infections or debilitating anemia. In others, scar tissue trapped urine or menstrual fluid, causing pelvic infections. Women with scar-constricted birth canals suffered dangerous and agonizing childbirth. Sometimes, the baby's trapped head led to fatal hemorrhage or ruptured the bladder, causing seepage of urine that made the woman smell like a latrine and poisoned her later fetuses."
    
    So no, I wouldn't say "crazy women." I would say poor children.
    
    Oh yes, the book: Nine Parts of Desire by Geraldine Brooks.Standing in the sun with my heart in my hand